The Pendulum is swinging Back..

[WaBiker]

For those that remember the M14 vs M16 Controversy back in the Old Days might get a "chuckle" out of this...or not:

Army Looking for Weapon to Replace M4

Of note:
"The first study, published by the U.S. Special Operations Command in 2001, concluded the M4A1 design was fundamentally flawed, saying a variety of factors "led to alarming failures" under harsh conditions and heavy firing schedules. The command started replacing its M4s in 2009, opting for the Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle, known as SCAR."

and this:
"An Army-commissioned study released in 2006 by the Center for Naval Analyses said 20 percent of soldiers recommended a larger bullet to increase lethality. Some in the combat zones commented on the weapon's limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying those who were shot multiple times were still able to continue fighting, the study stated"

[TerryMiller]

Kind of long winded but very thorough explanation of the replacement process to date. It seems like they're sticking with the 5.56, though.

The USA’s M4 Carbine Controversy

I was NAVY so never had any first hand experience. Is the 5.56 that bad? The only 5.56 I own is for prairie dogs.

[WaBiker]

I never had to Kill anyone with it so I cant speak to that end of it.
But theoritically speaking...as most things it has its good points and bad points. The old adage is "I rather be missed by a .45 than hit by a .22"...prolly applies.

Obviously there is no perfect solution. The problem isnt so much the caliber as the delivery system. Almost any "Gas Operated" system will need meticulous maintenance. Therein lies one of the primary issues with the AR Family of rifles. Gas Operation with tight tolerances lead to fouling and overheating problems. You gain in accuracy, but lose in functality.
Thats the opposite of the AK Family..Loose tolerances = phenomenal reliability but gives up in the accuracy dept.

The Israelis combined the best features of the AK/AR and devloped an excellent Service arm in the Galil (as note in your article)
Seems to me we could learn something from them and in the process, save a few million $$ in devolpement costs.

....but THAT might make to much sense for most Generals/Politicians looking for a new Toy.

From a another perspective, Had a buddy who carryied a M1 Carbine (.30 carbine) in Vietnam...exclusively. Light wieght, easy to carry, handled like it wasnt even there, fast on the trigger, accuarte as need be in the jungle, smaller caliber so lots of extra ammo, said he had "...no problems Killin dem yellow bastards".

So pick ANy caliber and you'll find a dozen pros/cons with it.

[TerryMiller]

The .30 carbine is a nice gun for woods use.

There was a special exemption written in for it in the first assault weapons ban.

[WaBiker]

Yea...I suppose I should've put that in context. His issue weapon at the time was the M14 in 7.62 (.308).... far and away ballistically superior to the often unfairly maligned and underated .30 carbine (I love that little gun)
Which co-incedently was also a "replacement" caliber/system... or at least was intended to be.

At the rate this thread is going, I might have to move it to the Bullets and Blades forum..loL

[scruffy]

I rember putting 5 rounds (.45) in a guy and he kept comming at me, ended up putting 2 in his kneecaps to finally stop him. Found out later that they found alot of drugs in him that he probably didn't feel anything..
Not sure if I like big and slow like a .45 or faster and alot more rounds like a 9mm. Guess it just means you don't have to aim as good, maybe that's why they use the AK???

[Berserker]

Alot of the world uses 7.62. The long might be alot of gun to fire for long period. I haven't fired a modern version but my 7.62x56mm with steel butt plate, is alot of gun.

But the 39mm might be a different story, not to mention modern guns.

[hornrocker]

Originally Posted by scruffy

I rember putting 5 rounds (.45) in a guy and he kept comming at me, ended up putting 2 in his kneecaps to finally stop him. Found out later that they found alot of drugs in him that he probably didn't feel anything....

FMJ or Hollow point?

[dirtydan]

Were was all the testing and firing before they bought the piece of shit in the first place? What make's them think they can do better this time?

[WaBiker]

Oh the original M16 was done right when Eugene Stoner Designed it back in the 60's. It required a special blend for the powder that burned cleaner, less fouling. Reduced maintenance.

Then everything went to shit, when the Guv'mint decided they could just substitute the power for something off the shelf to cut cost. Everything and snowballed from there.
The replacement powder Burned dirtier...fouled the gas system something fierce...but the guv'mint never change the the training program, so word got out that the M16 didnt need cleaning.. which lead to fouling...jams etc.
So, typical knee jerk reaction, the guv'mint added on the Bolt Forward assit with the A1 models to help alleviate the jamming problems essentially threw a bandaid on it and call it done ....which brings us back to the M4.....etc etc etc

....Something to that effect as best memory serves from reading Eugene Stoners Boigraphy.